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Who exactly are these people?

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1 Who exactly are these people? on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:11 pm

Working backwards (as you do), I have a Jane Sabin, b. 1805 in Leek Wootton.  On 7 Nov 1825 she marries Joseph Allton at Mancetter, Warks, and one of the witnesses is a Charles Sabin.  Joseph dies in 1874.

On 20 Jan 1876 she marries John Poultney at Stockingford, Warks, and on the certificate she gives her father's name/occupation as Edward Sabin, butcher.  

On all census records when Jane is married to Joseph Allton she gives her place of birth as Leek Wootton and her age is also consistent with a 1805 birth.  On the one census when she's married to John Poultney, her age is down by three years - but John is younger than her, so that could explain that - and she gives her place of birth as Coventy.

From FS and/or Ancestry I found the only likely baptism for Jane in 1805 in Coventry, daughter of Edward and Martha, and then found other baptisms with Edward/Martha parents:

Ann, 1799 Radford Semele
Harriott, 1801 Leek Wootton
John, 1802 Leek Wootton
Charles, 1803 Leek Wootton
Edward, 1815 Warwick
Elizabeth, 1819 Warwick

which means there's a 10yr gap between Jane (in 1805) and Edward jnr (in 1815), but that's not that unusual.  The earlier baptisms are the freehand style, but Edward and Elizabeth's are on the printed form and state that Edward snr is a butcher  at Cock Sparrow Hall (sounds more glamorous than it probably was) in Warwick.  The only Edward/Martha marriage in/around the right time/area is to a Martha Cooke on 1 Jan 1799 at Whitnash, Warks.

I then tried FMP for possible deaths of Edward snr and Martha and the only ones are:

Edward, buried in Harbury in 1843 - dob (calculated presumably from the burial record) as 1770.
Edward, buried in Coventry in 1849, dob (as above) as 1777.
Martha, buried in Warwick in 1841 - no dob.
Martha, buried in Shipston on Stour in 1843 - no dob.

Which means that whichever ones of the above they are, they should be on the 1841 census.  There's only one Edward/Martha couple I can find, and they're at the Durham Ox pub in Halton, Budbrooke, and Edward is a publican.  At the same address as Edward and Martha are these other Sabins:

William, b. 1813
Fanny, b. 1816
Elizabeth, b. 1821
Harry, b. 1831
Elizabeth, b. 1806
Charles, b. 1840
and a visitor called Elizabeth Moore, b. 1811.
All b. Warwickshire.

Who are these people?  The older Elizabeth, William and Fanny neatly fit in between Jane and Edward jnr, but if there's one living Eizabeth then the other surely can't also be a daughter.  Is it just that their baptisms haven't yet been indexed and does that explain why I can't find them?  Maybe one of the women is a wife of William?  

And then, as if this isn't confusing enough, other peeps on Ancestry have Edward's wife as "Martha(Mary)", and I think they've mixed the family up with another couple, Edward Sabin and Mary Rington. There is an Edward Sabin, b. 1771 in Warks, living by "independent means" with a family of Ringtons in Chesterton (somewhere near Southam, apparently).

This is all going round and round in my head, so I need help.

HELP ! [please, pretty please]

STG

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2 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:28 pm

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Who are these people?  The older Elizabeth, William and Fanny neatly fit in between Jane and Edward jnr, but if there's one living Eizabeth then the other surely can't also be a daughter.  

Take this one in very small chunks I think  study 

Wondering if baby Charles belongs to Elizabeth and if so if this marriage relates making her a daughter in law and married to Edward junior.

Warwick 1840
Edward Sabin
Elizabeth Mellor

Might not even be the right pairing but something to start off with.

3 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:35 pm

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Ok this is odd.  There is another census in 1841 with

Elizabeth Sabin 35
Charles 3 months

but this one also has Edward Sabin 20 butcher.

District is Mancetter Warwicks

I wonder if it is the same woman and child listed twice  scratch

4 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:49 pm

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Harry, b. 1831

He could be Henry 22 bricklayer named as son of John a servant on his marriage to Mary Betty 1 Jan 1853.

In 1851 Henry is nephew to Samuel & Fanny Upton.

Marriage Samuel Upton Fanny Sabin 1847 Coventry.

It's kind of unravelling but I need a piece of toast now  Smile 

5 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:55 pm

I'm glad that the mist is clearing for you, 'cos I'm still a bit befuddled by 'em all  scratch 

STG

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6 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:43 pm

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Working on it STG.

William, b. 1813
Fanny, b. 1816
Elizabeth, b. 1821
Harry, b. 1831
Elizabeth, b. 1806
Charles, b. 1840
and a visitor called Elizabeth Moore, b. 1811.
All b. Warwickshire.

Ignoring the visitor for the moment and to recap on theories thus far.

Harry is son of John nephew of Fanny which means Fanny is sister of John.

Elizabeth the 2nd is wife of Edward jnr so daughter in law.

That leaves Elizabeth the 1st and William for after my morning cuppa
 Sleep 

7 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:20 am

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Morning  study 

Off to the PO shortly but had the idea of looking for marriages with father Edward to button down some of these children.

The 1840 one I mentioned for Edward to Elizabeth Mellor is on ancestry. Father Edward a cattle dealer.  Edward jnr also cattle dealer.
Witnesses William Sabin Elizabeth Moore wasn't she the visitor  Question

Elizabeth Sabin marriage 31 July 1846 father Edward dealer
Groom George Smith Horton
Witnesses William Sabin Fanny Sabin

William Sabin marriage 10 April 1846 father Edward dealer
Bride Ann Washbrooke
Witnesses George Smith Elizabeth Sabin

Frances Sabin marriage 1847 father Edward butcher
Groom Samuel Upton
Witnesses William Jackson Elizabeth Jackson

8 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:27 pm

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Sorry am rambling on here but had a look at FMP at the library for the duplicate 1841 with Elizabeth 35 Charles 3 months and found they are not only listed with Edward the butcher but the following

William Mellor 4 and guess who Arrow 
Elizabeth Moore 30 the infamous visitor  Laughing 

If I remember the marriage for Edward/Elizabeth her father's name wasn't the same so she must have been married before and had a little boy William.
Her father is down as John Bucklea? a ribbon weaver.

Am intrigued by Elizabeth Moore now  study 

9 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:45 pm

It all seems to clear to you, but I've still not quite got it.  scratch 

Think I'm going to have to chart it out and that might help me.   Embarassed 

Am not the brightest star in the firmament today, am I?  Like a Star @ heaven 

I'm sure it will all work out.

Thanks soooo much for your help.

STG

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10 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:25 pm

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William, b. 1813
Fanny, b. 1816
Elizabeth, b. 1821
Harry, b. 1831
Elizabeth, b. 1806
Charles, b. 1840
and a visitor called Elizabeth Moore, b. 1811.
All b. Warwickshire.

Who are these people?  

William son of Edward
Fanny daughter of Edward
Elizabeth daughter of Edward
Harry son of John who is son of Edward
Elizabeth wife of Edward jnr who is son of Edward
Charles son of Elizabeth and Edward jnr

That's my take on it.  I've probably confused you with all my long winded posts  Basketball

11 Re: Who exactly are these people? on Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:36 pm

Thanks.

And I see that in 1851 a Samuel Upton and his wife Fanny, were still in Shrewley, where he was a beerhouse keeper (presumably at the Durham Ox, although it's not named), and with them is Henry Sabin b. 1831.

A Samuel Upton was a witness when Henry Sabin married Mary Betty.  Neat!

STG

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