Ann Pettifer Sanders

Ann is my g.grandmother. She married Tom Allton in 1881 and they had 14 children.

When I cleared my mother's house, I found a handwritten sheet with all the birth dates etc of the Allton children together with the date of the marriage of Tom and Ann, and their respective birthdates. Everything so far has proven to be correct, but ...

... I can't find a birth registration for Ann.

According to the handwritten paper, she was born 18 March 1862 and on all available census records it say she was born in Barby, Northants, which is in the Rugby registration district.

According to various sources on Ancestry, her mother seems to be Ann Pettifer (1832-1893) and her father William Sanders (b. 1831, Hurley, Warks).

In 1871 she's in Hurley with William and said to be his daughter.

In 1859 William marries Mary Pratt and they have two children, Charles (b.1858) and William (b. 1860). On the 1861 census he's in Barby, Northants with Mary and the two children. Mary dies later in 1861.

In 1863 William marries Jane Pratt and they have Betsy (b.1862 - bit iffy about this), Harriet (b. 1875), William Henry (b. 1883) and Edward (b 1887). All born Hurley/Kingsbury, Warwickshire. [Edited to say, can't find a marriage, so Betsy is registered as Betsy Pratt and the other children with surname Pratt too.]

Does anyone have any ideas? Can anyone find her birth registration, please?

Thanks
STG

Edited again to say : I've found her birth registration. She's down as Ann Pettifer SaUnders, Q2, Rugby.

Now looking again for a marriage for William Sanders/Saunders and some female surname Pettifer.

He didn't have much time to marry Ann's mother did he if she was born 1862 and he married Pratts in 1859 and 1863 - were the Pratts sisters?

I wonder if he had her inbetween marriages as it were because if her mother didn't die till 1893 he shouldn't be off marrying other women. I don't think he married her just had a child with her.

There's a William Sanders/Mary Pratt combo Daventry but that's in 1856 not 1859.
However that would fit better with a child born in 1858!

Actually when you look for Sanders/Saunders with Pratt combo there are a few. Must be popular surnames in that area. Can't see a Pettifer one tho.

There is an Ann Pettifer born 1832 Badby? living with her brother William in 1871 and possibly another daughter Sarah A born 1860. Is this Ann's mother - if so she is unmarried.

1861 she is with another brother Edward and Sarah A down as niece so not sure who she belongs to.

1881 she's back with William still unmarried. Sarah A still with them plus brother Edward and a 12 year old daughter who appears to belong to Edward.

1891 still with brothers and a sister.

This is all by the by if the wrong Ann but just for info like

Hi Tourmie

Yes, I've seen that Ann Pettifer, but I'm not sure.

IGI has a baptism for Ann Pettifer Sanders in April 1862 in Barby which fits in with her March birthday. It says she's the daughter of William and Mary.

Have to go orf to work in a few minutes, so can't investigate further at the mo, which is frustrating.

I think the other people on Ancestry have just "invented" marriages to fit in with the dates of birth of children/names on census, without realising that they don't actually make sense. Grrrr.



STG

Have to get the birth cert I guess to be sure but if Mary was her mother Mary can't die in 1861 so that's wrong too

Catch you later.

Ahh there's a death for Mary Sanders in Dec 1862 Rugby which would allow for the birth of Ann earlier that year

Thanks Tourmie.

I'm happy with that death - if you see what I mean.

Not had much time to look at this tonight, but am trying to sort the various children out in the hopes that that would help clarify who was who's mother.

If Mary Sanders (nee Pratt) was Ann Pettifer Sanders' mother, where on earth did the name Pettifer come from?

Working again tomorrow, so will have to put this on the back burner for now.

STG

Yes I'm happy with that death too.

Not happy that can't find another marriage for William - when is he supposed to have married Jane? I wonder if he did marry her - if he did why are the children down as Pratts

Also on 1891 census she was down as Jane Mary Pratt housekeeper not wife.
1881 William is shown as widower and Jane Mary Pratt way down the pecking order as housekeeper again but he must be having children with someone as there is a 6 year old daughter Harriet!
Plus your Tom Allton as a visitor

Speculation that Pettifer was perhaps Mary Pratts mothers maiden name and she gave it to her daughter to carry on the name but no evidence for that yet.

Just off out but will have another nosey when I get back.

Ok there is a tree with Jane Mary Pratts parents as William Pratt and Ann Pettifor so there we go - or do we? This Jane born 1829 which doesn't tie in with the Jane on 1871/1891 who was born 1845.

Looks almost like Mary Pratt and Jane Mary Pratt have been amalgamated into one person but it can't be the same woman all the way through as the second one is much younger plus the first one died.

Was the original Mary......nope need some brain food before continuing

My take on the nippers.

Marriage 1856 William S to Mary P produces 3 children in Barby Northants which all space out nicely between the marriage and Marys death later in 1862.

Charles S 1857 (presume Charles died as he doesn't reappear)
William Pratt S 1860
Ann Pettifer S 1862

From the 1891 census we have extra nippers
Harriet 16
Wm H 7
Edward 4
and Betsy who is now a widow of 27 with a 3 year old daughter.

I have found births for Betsy Pratt 1864 Harriet Pratt 1874 William Henry Pratt 1883 and Edward Pratt 1887 all in Tamworth district.

So I would say they never married - hence the birth registrations under Pratt - but William fathered the children and they lived together as husband and "housekeeper"

Hi

Thanks for all that.

Know what you mean about the Mary and Jane Mary being conflated into one person. Think your analysis of the children an who their mum is, is correct.

Managed to do a bit more of this today than I thought I would and ...

Have found a marriage in Hilmorton, Warks (Rugby area) between William Pratt and Ann PETTIFOR on 17 Dec 1811. Yay!

Then looked for baptisms in the same area with parents William and Ann, and there are:

Elizabeth, bap. 1812 at Hilmorton
then loads all christened in Clifton-on-Dunsmore (same area):
Henry - 1816
Sarah - 1818
Ann - 1822
James Pettifer - 1824
John - 1827
Jane Mary - 1829
John - 1832
Rebecca - 1834
Ann - 1838

Obviously not sure about all of them being "mine", but I think it's possible that the Jane Mary, b. 1829 is William's first wife (going by her second Christian name).

I have found a 1851 census record for Jane M Pratt, living with her widowed g.mother Ann, b. abt 1794 in Hilmorton, so I wonder if that Ann is/was the Ann Pettifor/er who married William Pratt in 1811 in Hilmorton.


http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=WARHO107_2070_2070-0043&fn=Jane+H&ln=Pratt&st=r&ssrc=pt_t23924512_p5064133513_kpidz0q3d5064133513z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid_m1&pid=9419768

Which would make Jane Mary Pratt (b. 1844/5) either the daughter of one of William Pratt/Ann Pettifer's other children (either one of the sons, which is why she has the surname Pratt, or as the illegitimate daughter of one of the sisters). Does this make sense?

Haven't yet found her in 1861, but am about to woosh off to see if I can.

Thanks again.
STG

Have found Jane in 1861, as a domestic servant on a farm in Crick, Warks.

Now off to see if I can find a death for her.

Oh well done so definitely got the Pettifer link worked out

Yes I see what you mean about the second Jane being of the same family but could just be a coincidence with the names if they were common in that area.

Baptism of a Mary Jane Pratt Clifton upon Dunsmore 15 Dec 1846 parents Edward and Mary is the closest I can find. Names round the wrong way tho.

She could be the Jane Pratt death in Tamworth - everything seems to happen in Tamworth! - 1893 age 48* as she was 46 on the 1891 census.

One tree has the same death for her but another has her in 1901 with a boarder single age 57 so both are contradicting.

*Warwickshire burials has this lady buried 20 Jan 1893 age 48 abode Hurley - sounds promising.

Hi Tourmie

I think the 48yo in Hurley death is Jane.

> Tamworth

Yes, Tamworth in Staffs is the registration district for Kingsbury/Hurley, and Rugby in Warks is the registration district for Barby in Northants. V.confusing, but brilliant that the Kingsbury PRs are on Ancestry. They've been a God-send for my research.

I've been trying to find William Sanders/Saunders on the 1851 census, but without any luck.

I think I have found him in 1841 with his parents Thomas and Ann

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=WARHO107_1129_1131-0284&fn=William&ln=Sanders&st=r&ssrc=pt_t23924512_p1451188779_kpidz0q3d1451188779z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid&pid=10816827

where it says Thomas was b. in County.

I've then looked for Thomas +/- Ann in 1851 and think I've found him living with another son, John and family

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=STSHO107_2013_2014-0652&fn=Thomas&ln=Saunders&st=r&ssrc=pt_t23924512_p5064133487_kpidz0q3d5064133487z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid_m1&pid=8483280

Think it says he a widower, carpenter (so that's the same), but now it says b. Stapleford (or something) in Derbyshire.

Am inclined to think that's the same Thomas, especially as I can find a death for a 78yo in 1856 in the Kingsbury Parish Register. I've been through the register page by page, but can't find a death for Ann between 1841 and 1851, so am a bit stumped with her.

So, does it sound as if I'm on the right track with the earlier Sanders?





Turning back to Mary/Jane Mary Pratt. Isn't it frustrating when you know who someone's grandparent was (i.e. in this case Ann (nee Pettifer) Pratt), but you can't ID their actual parents? Also this Mary Jane/Jane Mary business is "doing my head in". Going to give the Pratt/Pettifers a rest for a few days.



STG

Hum. Having doubts about Thomas b. 1777 in Derbyshire being William Sanders' father.

If, as per the 1851 census, he's the father of John, then John was b. abt 1808/9, which is a looooooooong time before William in 1831. The IGI has the following Christenings in Kingsbury of children born to Thomas and Ann Sanders:

John, 1810
Elizabeth, 1813
Mary, 1816

and then three christenings in Kingsbury with a mother called Ann(e) Sanders, but no father named:

Sarah, 1828
William, 1831
George, 1837

so that looks like two separate families to me.

Will see if I can find them on the Kingsbury PRs on Ancestry and if that offers any more info.

STG

Edited to say : Kingsbury PR Baptisms, in the "Child's Christian name" column it says :

William
son
B of B

ooh er. What does "B of B" mean? Any ideas? [Edited again to say : Base Born]

Edited again to say : Entry for Sarah also says "B of B", but not for George. No father named for any of these three children.