A Bit Bemused by the Brentnalls

Hi

I'm doing a tree for a friend and am having a bit of trouble with Alfred Brentnall and his children.

Basic facts = He was b. 1869 in Somercotes, Derbys and d. 1949 in Belper, Derbys. He married Eliza Rodgers in 1892 in Belper, she dies in 1909 and he then marries Mary E Leivers in 1912, again in Belper.

1st problem :
I can't find a father for him. From later census records, his mother seems to be Mary Ann Somebody, b. abt 1849 in Riddings, Derbys.

On the 1871 census, he's with his grandparents, John and Hannah Brentnall. By 1881 he's with his mother, now Mary Ann Radford (wife of Joseph Radford, m. 1873 in Belper).
Mary Ann Brentnall (d/o John and Hannah) in 1871 is visiting the Daykin family in a nearby village - the Daykins are related somehow, but can't quite remember how off the top of my head and don't think it's critical to Mary and/or Alfred).

I've searched the indexes for a male Brentnall marrying someone called Mary (+/- the Ann(e)) in the general area and there's only one: George Brentnall, but I don't think he's the son of John and Hannah because (a) he's not on any of the same census returns as John and Hannah and/or any of their other children and (b) he turns up elsewhere in Derbyshire with his wife Mary.

Before I break the news to my friend that I think Alfred was illegitimate, can anyone find a father for him, please?

2nd problem:
On the 1911 census, Alfred lists himself as a widow and is living in Alfreton with the following children:
Clarice Augusta, 17
Alfred Joseph, 15
Leonard, 12
Samuel Rodgers, 9
Annis, 6
and
James Rodgers, 1

In the Years Married column it says 18, crossed out.
In the "How Many Children etc" column, these have been filled in on the same line as Annis' name and says 6born, 5living,
then on the line against James Rodgers' name, in the column for children who have died it says 1.

So I set about finding the birth records for the children and all goes well until I get to young James Rodgers Brentnall. I find a birth in Belper in 1907, AND a death in Belper in 1908 of a 1yo. So, who is the child on the 1911 census?

3rd problem:
My friend is decended from the family of Alfred and his second wife Mary E Leivers. When I took the family history from her and her sister they both remember their mother having a half-brother called Harold.

I can't find him anywhere.

_____

Can anyone help with any of this, please? All assistance greatly appreciated.

Thanks
STG

Groom's Name: Alfred Brentnall
Groom's Birth Date: 1869
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 23
Bride's Name: Eliza Rodgers
Bride's Birth Date: 1872
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 20
Marriage Date: 20 Aug 1892
Marriage Place: Alfreton,Derby,England

Groom's Father's Name: Joseph Brentnall
Bride's Father's Name: Samuel Rodgers

Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M04627-7
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 1041621
Reference Number:

i think from the way the census lines have been filled in next to certain names as you describe that they had the six children mentioned and that the one dead was james rogers brentnall who died aged 1 and that he was not actually alive at the time of the census

vron wrote:Groom's Name: Alfred Brentnall
Groom's Birth Date: 1869
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 23
Bride's Name: Eliza Rodgers
Bride's Birth Date: 1872
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 20
Marriage Date: 20 Aug 1892
Marriage Place: Alfreton,Derby,England

Groom's Father's Name: Joseph Brentnall
Bride's Father's Name: Samuel Rodgers

Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M04627-7
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 1041621
Reference Number:

I looked and looked and looked, and still couldn't find it.

I now see from the indexes that Joseph Brentnall m. Mary Parsons in 1875 in Belper, so will follow that for a while and see if I can find a father for Joseph.

Thanks v.much Vron

STG

the other grandchild on the 1871 census gives her father as john on marriage
Name: George Haddock
Event: Marriage
Event Date: 06 Feb 1892
Event Place: Alfreton, Alfreton, Derbyshire, England
Gender: Male
Age: 30
Marital Status: Widowed
Estimated Birth Year: 1862
Father: Charles Haddock
Mother:
Spouse: Sarah Jane Brentnall
Spouse's Age: 25
Spouse's Marital Status: Single
Spouse's Estimated Birth Year: 1867
Spouse's Father: John Brentnall
Spouse's Mother:
Film Number: 1041621
Digital Folder Number: 004451977
Image Number: 00252

vron wrote:i think from the way the census lines have been filled in next to certain names as you describe that they had the six children mentioned and that the one dead was james rogers brentnall who died aged 1 and that he was not actually alive at the time of the census

Yes, he must be dead, mustn't he?

Made me wonder though how many other dead people were counted on the 1911 census (and since)!

STG

do you have the marriage cert for mary e leivers. what do you know about where she came from. is she on census before marrige?

Don't have any certificates!

There's a Mary Eliza Leivers on the 1911 census, age 28, single, living with her widowed father Thomas Dunn Leivers, age 70. He's a retired miner b. Brinsley, Notts; Mary b. Underwood, Notts.

She seems to fit my bill for marrying Alfred in 1912. Also, there's a death of a Mary E Brentnall, b. abt 1886, d. 1948 in Alfreton.

Someone on Ancestry has Mary's father as a Walter Leivers, which matches something on the FamilySearch website, the one with the father called Walter is down as Mary A (rather than Mary E) and there are several Mary A Leivers b. Basford, Notts within a year or two of when Mary E was born, so that's probably confused them.

STG

Vron

Actually, cancel that.

There are a couple of Mary Eliza's, but only one Mary Elizabeth, so suspect that the one on the 1911 census isn't the one I'm after.

Think I'll sign out now until tomorrow. I've got too many Brentnalls to cope with at the mo!

See you tomorrow.

Night.
STG

Groom's Name: Joseph Radford
Groom's Birth Date: 1854
Groom's Age: 19
Bride's Name: Mary Ann Brentnall
Bride's Birth Date: 1850
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 23
Marriage Date: 14 Apr 1873
Marriage Place: Alfreton,Derby,England
Groom's Father's Name: William Radford
Bride's Father's Name: John Brentnall

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M04627-4
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 1041621

from the above it certainly seems as if alfred was illigitimate. i think he gave hsi fathers name as joseph on his marriage but perhaps referring to joseph radford or perhaps giving his uncles name joseph for respectibility.

vron wrote:from the above it certainly seems as if alfred was illigitimate. i think he gave hsi fathers name as joseph on his marriage but perhaps referring to joseph radford or perhaps giving his uncles name joseph for respectibility.

Yep. It certainly looks that way to me. There's no appropriate marriage between a Joseph Brentnall and a Mary A Somebody, and there's no appropriate death of a Joseph Brentnall between Alfred being conceived/born and Mary A Brentnall marrying Joseph Radford.

Also, apologies for a mistake in my OP. Alfred's g.father was Joseph (not John, as I said). But that just adds weight to the possibility of the father called Joseph being a cover story (i.e. could have been his step-father Joseph Radford OR his grand-father Joseph Brentnall he was referring to).

So, that's sorted out Alfred's parentage and the death of baby James Rodgers Brentnall. Now, what about the elusive "Harold", said to be half-brother to my friend's mum?

He's not the child of Alfred and Eliza Rodgers (because we've accounted for all of them as declared on the 1911 census), and Alfred married Mary Elizabeth Leivers in 1912, which is only one year after the 1911 census, so although there was, technically, time to have another child, it doesn't seem particularly likely. Also, I've searched for Harry/Harold Brentnall births in Belper reg district and there is a Harry b. 1905 and another in 1910, but as there are loads of Brentnalls in the area - and I've only just scratched the surface of them - he could simply belong to another branch of the family. Am wondering if, p'raps, Harry lived with/was brought up by Alfred and Mary and so friend's mother thought he was a half-brother when in fact he was more likely to have been some sort of cousin.

Because of the multitude of Brentnalls, I hadn't turned my attention properly to Mary Eliz Leivers, so you caught me on the hop last night asking about her, which is why my reply didn't make much sense. Clearly, in order to get any further with her I'm going to at least need her marriage certificate to Alfred, which should show her father's name. Although, we'll have to hope that she wasn't as economical with the truth as Alfred was!

STG

PS : Apologies for not posting this morning,but forgot I had to go out.

Me again!

There's a death of a 0yo Harry Brentnall in Belper in 1905, which would seem to me to be the death of the one b. 1905.

The one b. 1910 is on the 1911 census living in Ripley, Derbys with his parents George and Lillian Brentnall.

So, that's both of them accounted for.

Thinking that my cousin theory is most likely. Yes?

STG

sorry i havent really looked at mary leivers or harry yet.

I am still not totally convinced about alfred and his parentage etc. there sometimes seems tobe contradicting info. eg on 1881 mary daughter of john and hannah seems to be at home and unmarried

Name: Mary Brentnall
Age: 31
Gender: Female
Birth Year: 1850
Birthplace: Beeston, Nottinghamshire, England
Relationship to Head of Household: Daughter
Marital Condition: Single
Profession/Occupation: Milliner & Dress Maker
Address: Wollaton Rd
Census Place: Beeston, Nottinghamshire, England
Disability:
Record Type: Household
Family History Library Film: 1341794
The National Archives Reference: RG11
Piece/Folio: 3331 / 67
Page Number: 35
Household Gender Age
Parent John Brentnall M 65
Parent Hannah Brentnall F 66
Mary Brentnall F 31
Emma Brentnall F 29

when your mary ann was married to joseph radford

Hum.

In 1881, when Alfred was 11yo, he's living with Joseph Radford, Joseph's wife Mary A Radford, and a number of Radford children,
Frances, 6
John, 4
Job, 3
Mary, 1
and
Moses, 3mths

If Joseph and Mary married in 1873, then that would make Frances their first child together and those dates add up. Alfred's relationship to the head of the household (Joseph Radford) is given as "son in law", which I think is what we would call step son.

As I said in my long post (the one before the last one), there's a mistake in my OP. Mary's father (Alfred's grandfather) isn't called John, he's called Joseph. So, I think there are two Brentnall couples. One = John and Hannah, other = Joseph and Hannah.

Joseph and Hannah live in Somercotes, which would make a birth for Mary in Riddings, much more likely than the Mary Brentnall b. Beeston you mention in your last msg.

Oh. Confusing, innit?

STG

yes - i am not sure about all of this. i think as your friend is descended from mary leivers the best thing would be to start with that marriage cert to see what it say s about marrige condition eg widower and fathers names. does she know that alfred definitely married twice.

> Does she know that Alfred definately married twice?

Yes, she knew that her mother had half-siblings - especially the one called Harold (he, who we can't find) - and had said that she wouldn't have been surprised if there were others.

I'll just tell her that I'm a bit stuck and need the marriage certificate to help me untangle the many Brentnalls.

PS : If Mary Radford is Alfred's natural mother, after she'd had sons called John, Job and Moses, she went on to have another called Pharaoh. Blimey. Wonder if he got teased about his name?


STG

is your friend the child of mary elizabeth or the grandchild? and the half siblings come from marys side? so alfred doesnt have to have married twice! sorry i am getting confused

My friend is the grandchild of Mary Elizabeth Brentnall (nee Leivers). Friend's mother was one of the six children (four girls, two boys) born to Alfred and Mary; first one in 1913, last one in 1923.

All that tallies with the information that friend gave me about her mother's full siblings (even as to who were older and/or younger than her mother). So, quite accurate. Just half-brother "Harold" that I can't fit in [yet].


STG

sorry for all the questions - just trying to get a "handle on Harold" so friends mothers birth cert say brentnall nee leivers - no chance mary elizabeth was married before so harold should be born under the name leivers and before 1912

Hadn't thought of that option - like I said, I hadn't really started on the Leivers - so will ask friend to check her mother's birth certificate and will report back.

Thanks for all your help.

Off to do some ironing now and give the Brentnalls a bit of peace from my rummagings.

STG

Just had quick chat with friend and established that half-brother Harold was Mary Elizabeth Leivers' child b. out of wedlock. Family story is that Mary was away from Derbyshire in service somewhere further south, became pregnant (something to do with the local butcher) and returned home to have the baby.

On the 1911 I've found Harold Leivers, age 5 living with his widowed grandmother Ann Leivers age 56 and her two sons, Harry, 29 and Arthur, 27. All said to be born living in Pinxton, Derbys and also living there in 1911. Then have found a death for Harold Leivers in Mansfield in 1985, which friend confirms sounds right.

Since then I've been trying to pin down any further info on Mary's brothers Harry and Arthur. Found birth registrations for both, but can't find them on any census records before 1911. The LDS site seems to show Arthur on the 1901 census as :

Name: Arthur Leivers
Event: Census
Event Date: 31 Mar 1901
Gender: Male
Age: 17
Relationship to Head of Household: Son
Birthplace: Pinxton, Derbyshire
Record Type: Household
Registration District: Basford
Sub-district: Greasley
Ecclesiastical Parish: Selston St Helen'S
Civil Parish: Selston
County: Nottinghamshire

and the same comes up for Harry (exept it says age 19), but the image won't come up for me on Ancestry.

I'm hoping that if I can get the image it will give me Mary, Harry and Arthur's father's name. That and/or help me back to the 1891 census for all three of them that won't seem to pop up from Ancestry either.


Friend confirms that her g.mother (Mary Elizabeth Leivers) died 1948, so from the indexes, that gives her birth year as being abt 1886.

Anyone got any ideas, please?

STG

Think I've found Ann and some children in 1901

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=NTTRG13_3145_3146-0258&fn=Maggie&ln=Lewers&st=r&ssrc=pt_t36578517_p19226998402_kpidz0q3d19226998402z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid&pid=18408113

and then Ann with husband Walter in 1891.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=NTTRG12_2660_2662-0451&fn=Maggie&ln=Lewers&st=r&ssrc=pt_t36578517_p19226998402_kpidz0q3d19226998402z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid&pid=13707419

and there's a death of a 49yo Walter in Basford reg district in 1896.

Does that seem right?

Still can't find Mary in 1911 though.

STG

There's a Lizzie Leivers in 1911 age 24 single servant living 15 Chapel Bar Nottingham.

Is her birth under Mary Elizabeth? If so then this Lizzie probably isn't her.

Name:
Lizzie Leivers

Date of registration:
Jul-Aug-Sep 1887

Registration district:
Basford

Inferred County:
Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire

Yes, she's born as Mary Elizabeth Leivers.

If the family story is correct and she came home to have Harold, and in 1911 Harold is with Mary's mother in Pinxton (Derby/Notts border), and then in 1912 Mary marries Alfred Brentnall in Belper reg district, my hunch is that she's not far away from either Harold or Alfred in 1911.

It's just a question of actually pinning her down.

I've found her younger sister Maggie in 1911. Married and with a baby herself, but Mary isn't living with her. 1911 census says that Mary's mother had six children, four still living, so with the two brothers living with their mum, that's all four of them accounted for in 1911.

STG