Alfred John Coole.................................

Some of you may of seen this thread on the BBC and Rootschat but I have come across a 1911 entry and would like your opinion.

Alfred John Coole born 1867 Bristol. In 1890 he marries Ellen Selina Rudman. On the 1891 census they are called Fred and Nellie Coole living at 40 Albert Street, Bristol. Alfred is a Wheelwright and Coachmaker by occupation.

I have been trying to find what happened to them afterwards which has been difficult.

In 1940 it appears Alfred dies in Camberwell London

On the 1911 census I have found a entry for a Frederick Coole born 1871 (c) Bristol living in Camberwell London, Coach Joiner Motor by occupation. The one ? is he is described as single. As he was known as Fred could his name be put down as Frederick? Also bearing in mind that Alfred died in Camberwell.


At the same time on the 1911 census I have found a Ellen Coole born 1871 (c) Bristol. married, living on her own at 33 Fox Road County Bristol Gloucestershire.

Any ideas?

siamese

Hmmm tricky.

1901 has a Frederick Coole (prob same one you found in 1911) in Camberwell.
He's a boarder, single, age 29 and coach something builder.

Wonder where Nellie was in 1901. Any mention of children on the 1911 found for Ellen?

Are we sure your Alfred is the one that died in Camberwell?
I'm not sure you would call yourself Frederick if you were Alfred John but stranger things have happened!

Probate for Alfred John Coole died 1 December 1940 42 Maydwell St Camberwell to Kate Bush widow.
Does that help or hinder? Presume Kate Bush was someone elses widow not his.

Then we have an Alfred Coole 90 Avonvale Road Barton Hill Bristol coachsmith died 21 Jan 1913 probate to John George Coole and Albert William Osborne estate agents.

Tourmie, Yes that is useful, I found Alfred John's death registration but not his probate.

The Alfred who died in 1913 was his father (have death certificate)

siamese

Yes I know Frederick is abit different from Alfred. On the 1891 census he is called Fred hence Frederick.

This is what I think could well of happened.

Between 1891-1901 the marriage breaks up. Alfred goes off to London and disappears, and calls himself single.
Ellen remains in Bristol and considers herself as married, she is living on her own on the 1911 census working as a machinist.

In 1919 she remarries having not heard from Alfred for well over 7 years. Her new husband is called George Elson. Marriages Jun 1919
Coole Ellen S Elson Bristol 6a 419

In 1939 Ellen dies in Shrewsbury Ellen S Elson Birth Date: abt 1869 Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1939 Age at Death: 70 Registration district: Shrewsbury Inferred County: Shropshire Volume: 6a Page: 777.
When I can afford it I'll order a marriage and death certificate.
What is your opinion?

siamese

The address on the probate for Alfred John Coole is the same as the census address for the Frederick Coole you found in Camberwell in 1911 so we can conclude that is the same person

Your scenario sounds highly plausible.

Just had to let you know, I was browsing though my certificates early this morning and came across this death certificate.

Death of Emma Coole on the 21st October 1918. Guess who was present at her death plus address was A J Coole, stepson, 42 Maydell Street, Albany Road, Camberwell London.

Wander if Ellen knew about this? Should of mentioned that Alfred's father Alfred Coole born 1839 Bristol was married twice, his first wife Victoria Ann died in 1869 when Alfred junior was only 2. Two years later Alfred married Emma Bryant.

Thanks for your advice.

siamese

The marriage certificate in 1919 Bristol for Ellen Selina Coole and George Elson came to day. Ellen is down as a widow. So either Ellen's first husband died in 1918/1919 or Ellen was already married when she married George.

When Emma Coole died in 1918 (Alfred John's mother) her stepson AJ Coole was down as present at her death, and his address was the same as where he was living in 1940 in London.

So looks like we have a scandal in the family?????

siamese

I have just come across some more information confirming that what we have discovered concerning Alfred and Ellen Coole is correct.

While going though Alfred's sister Kate's family information observed she married Samuel Bush in 1922 Bristol.

On looking at Alfred's probate is written "Administration Bristol 3 June to Kate Bush widow"

Summary
1867.. Alfred John Coole was born
1890..Married Ellen Selina Rudman
1891..Living in Bristol, known as Fred and Nellie
1891-1901. Sometime the marriage broke up, Alfred moved to London and Ellen stayed in Bristol.
1901..Alfred is now called Frederick and is boarding with a widow in Camberwell, occupation Coach Joiner Motor. Classed as single. Ellen is living on her own in Bristol, classed as married
1911..Still boarding in Camberwell. Nellie no change.
1918.. Alfred's step mother dies and Alfred is present at her death, the death certificate also gives Alfred's address in London.
1919..Ellen gets married again to George Elson. She is classed as a widow.
1940 Alfred John Coole dies, in London
1942.. Probate, naming his sister Kate Bush.

One mystery solved with your help.

siamese

Just out of interest I ordered and received to day a death certificate for Alfred John Coole, died 1940 Camberwell London. Present at his death was son Arthur John Lucas.

Now it was in 1911 that Alfred who's name was now Frederick was boarding with a family called Lucas. Looks more than just lodging??
"

Name Age
Amy Selina Lucas 33
George John Lucas 13
William Victor Lucas 10
Frederick Coole 40"

siamese

Well that's interesting siamese. How did he get to have a son called Lucas   

That little family you listed are in 1901.

George J Lucas 31
Amy S 23
George J 3
William V 4 months

George James Lucas marriage Amy Selina Andrews Dec 1897

On the 1911 she has put 3 children 2 living 1 died then scribbled it out so as yet we don't have an Arthur John Lucas. Intriguing   

There's a death for Amy S Lucas in Camberwell Mar 1923 age 46.
Wonder who the informant was on her death and what happened to her young boys.

On the electoral rolls for 1920-1922 42 Maydwell Street are Amy Selina Lucas and Alfred John Coole  

In 1936-1939 Alfred John Coole same add is with an Arthur Lucas  

Wander if he was father to all 3 children?? but why surname Lucas not Coole?

They must of known that Alfred was already married and not in a position to remarry, so for the shake of respectability they or only Arthur took their mother's surname.

Wander if there had been a Mr Lucas?

siamese

Just had a look at my tree. Ellen Selina Elson (formerly Coole/Rudman) Alfred's wife died in 1939 in Shrewsbury, but very likely Alfred did not know.

siamese

Just read your first message
"That little family you listed are in 1901.

George J Lucas 31
Amy S 23
George J 3
William V 4 months

George James Lucas marriage Amy Selina Andrews Dec 1897"

siamese

This is were I was getting slightly confused. On the 1901 census Alfred/Frederick is boarding with the Berry family
John Berry 52
Hannah Berry 50
Herbert Berry 12
William Coe 42
Frederick Coole 29
Thomas Warby 21

1911

Name Age
Amy Selina Lucas 33
George John Lucas 13
William Victor Lucas 10
Frederick Coole 40

There's a George James Lucas death in Southwark Jun 1904 - could be her husband tho age is 31 same as the 1901 census.

I wonder when Arthur Lucas was born - after 1911 can we assume?
If so presume his birth would be registered with Lucas mothers maiden name also.

What did Alfred John Coole die of if you don't mind my asking?

Son seems to be living with him in the years preceding his death so I wondered if he was looking after him.

Also would the electoral roll give an indication of when he was born?
How old did you have to be to appear - 21? We could take off 21 years from when he first appears and voila have a birth year.

Can't find an entry for 1935 so going on 1936 being the first time he appears and the theory he was then 21 that gives us a birth year of about 1915.

How about this one?   

Jun 1915 Camberwell
Arthur Lucas MMN Andrews

Andrews was Amy Selina's maiden name - I think that's a pretty good bet don't you?   

Found a possible marriage and children for him in Kent.
Plus there's a family tree with him on mother Andrews soooooooo could be some more relatives for you siamese.

Marriage 1942 Lewisham to Doris G Willett.
Death for Arthur Bromley 1985 age 70.
Two children born to those surname pairings in Bromley.

Wife and children's details on the tree private so still living.

So both William and George were born after Mr Lucas died in 1904, and Arthur so looks very likely that Alfred was father to all 3 boys.

Alfred died of Myocardial degeneration and Senility.

Wander if wife Ellen knew any of this, we will never know.  I think they just lost touch with each other.

Thanks Tourmie for your help.

siamese

George J Lucas 31
Amy S 23
George J 3
William V 4 months

George was the father of the first two boys, they are all together as a family in 1901 above.

I wonder if she put George as the father of Arthur because she chose to put "Lucas surname Andrews maiden name" and she can't have been both mother and father on the birth certificate!

Oh to be able to view that certificate online.  She might even have fudged it and put Alfred John Lucas for the father.

Sorry my mistake, getting the census mixed up. Definitely said on Alfred's death certificate. Arthur John Lucas son.

Wander if someone on roots would do a parish look up for Camberwell that is if Arthur had been baptised.

siamese